Ah, the ever-present problem of ‘Nice Guys.’ It plagues the population as a whole and feminists because the typical reaction is ‘but this just proves you’re a man-hating feminist!’ Ah, the things that anti-feminists describe as ‘manly’. Rape, sexual harassment, spousal abuse. I mean, you’d think they’d have a higher estimation of the men they revere as flawless.
Onto Nice Guy Syndrome. See, maybe the title is misleading at first. The point, though, is, that the men targeted by this concept aren’t actually nice. What happens is, boy likes girl. Girl does not like boy, for whatever reason. Girl chooses other boy who turns out to be, in Nice Guy’s opinion, a jerk.
Nice Guy then says any of these things.
She has ‘issues’. That’s why she chose him.
This one is problematic because of the stigma of ‘issues.’ The crazy, overemotional woman is so whenever she’s upset and the man doesn’t particularly want to deal with it so he says something along the lines of ‘take a chill pill’ or the newly popular ‘calm your tits’ or even ‘chill out slut’. Case in point, chill. Your needs aren’t important, nor are your opinions. If you are upset about something you’re being emotional.
I’m not upset about it, the calm, rational man who always knows best, so clearly you’re just over-reacting.
Any girl who goes for the jerks is not worth your time. Move onto someone worth it.
Oh, good. This just strikes me as funny. ‘You’re worthless! Now, why won’t you go out with me?’ The important thing to note here is the single distinguishing factor of a ‘jerk.’ Not necessarily that he actually is a jerk to the woman, but that Nice Guy does not like the guy. Evidence of jerk-hood does not have to be given.
He is a jerk because he took the woman from the Nice Guy even if the woman never claimed to like Nice Guy.
But I offered you advice on boys! I let you cry on my shoulder at every break up! I loaned you my pencil in Math class! I was nice to you! We were friends!
This one is particularly eyebrow-raising because apparently friendship=relationship and sex/relationship is owed the moment one becomes friends.
But I asked you out five times and you said no each time! See, clearly you’re the jerk!
This image does a particularly good job of illustrating the ‘but I asked you out!’ argument. Apparently if a guy likes us, we are obligated to, optimally, like him back. If we don’t like him, we must give good reasons. We simply cannot say no. If we simply say no, it is not enough and we are just playing hard to get. And must be pursued, even a bit creepily, like this fellow here. This plays into rape culture quite nicely as when a woman says no, it is not important to listen.
Ah, it’s no big deal. She’s a whore anyway. I’m better off without her.
First it’s important to note that for a girl to be branded a ‘slut’ or a ‘whore’ it is not necessary to sleep with someone. This is true even for the good youth group girls who parade their ‘Virgin is not a dirty word’ t-shirts around high school hallways and wear their abstinence rings everywhere. Amazingly, these slurs have absolutely nothing to do with sexual habits. All that is necessary is for someone to deem you mean. I remember the first time I was called a whore. I don’t remember why. I think I was standing up to the cheerleader for being rude or something.
I remember turning around, never having kissed a boy, and pointing out the logical fallacy. I also remember being laughed at. Silly, it’s got nothing to do with your sexual habits. You can be a whore if -
- someone doesn’t like you for any reason whatsoever
- you date someone that someone else doesn’t like
- you turn down the ‘Nice Guy’
- you have big breasts.
- Any other reason.
Well, I have to have some standards.
I’ve heard this one plenty of times and have come to see it as a defining hallmark of the Nice Guy. I’ve been told, times-aplenty, that I’m undateable because I’m fat (BAHAAHAHAHAHA). I’ve heard guys say that they don’t like dating fat girls because fat is unattractive and unhealthy. I’d just like to say that if you make that statement in this society, wherein every girl takes up too much space, you have absolutely no reason to whine about not having a date. Only skinny girls, right? So that eliminates most of the pool, as most of us, even if NOT fat, think we aren’t at the right size. Also, when guys turn down a fat girl and then turn around and whine endlessly about all the girls being taken by jerks.
What they mean, of course, is ‘all the skinny pretty girls are taken!’ And since, if you SAY something like ‘I only date skinny girls,’ girls just might talk to each other, you shouldn’t be surprised when you, sizeist prick, become undateable to us women. You know, because we have to have some standards, too.
The point behind Nice Guy Syndrome is that the guys aren’t actually nice. They’re misogynist pricks. Under every comment and rant that they make about the women who didn’t choose them is that women don’t really know what’s good for them. That’s why they choose the jerks after all! If they knew what’s good for them, they’d have chosen the Nice Guy, who, as we can see, has a lot of gems to say about the One Who Got Away. Here’s the thing, though.
I’ve heard a LOT of guys, scorn on rejection, talk about these ‘bad girls’ and their deep-seated need to be loved by ‘jerks’. It’s a popular theory, but I have never heard another girl confirm this. ‘I just love to be treated like crap!’ Nope, never heard it. Sorry.
You know why? We don’t like going out with jerks. Sometimes we accidentally choose them, because we’re people who make mistakes. We don’t have some deep desire to be treated like crap. And please don’t offer up evidence like, ‘but girls go back to abusive relationships ALL THE TIME!’ Abuse is complicated, and it’s not a fair example. Also, way to enable the abuse and make it her fault that she’s still trapped in it. Good job.
Here’s the thing, guys. Yes, guys. The ones who think I’m just picking on the lonely guys who can’t get women. If you find yourself saying these things after you’re rejected by a girl, listen real close:
come a little closer.
Listening yet?
Got your attention?
YOU’RE NOT ACTUALLY NICE.
You could have been rejected for any reason. Maybe it’s about her. Maybe it’s about you. If you said those things or thought them, it’s probably about you, because it turns out being called worthless sluts who don’t know what’s good for them is NOT romance-central for us. And take the clue, in case you’re writing me off right now as some radical feminist completely out of touch with reality.
Ask some women about this issue. Seeing as how we’d know. Take the hint. If you quit being a misogynistic jerk, maybe she’ll go for you. If she doesn’t, that’s not an excuse to call her a slut or a whore or suggest that she really doesn’t know what’s good for her, or talk about how she has ‘issues’ because oh yay, the thought that women with mental health issues aren’t worthy of your affection is just delightful. See how it’s really just men who make these arguments, and a tiny minority of women with internalized sexism?
See how countless women are cheering YES, YES, YES when we talk about Nice Guy Syndrome? The hint. It has slapped you in the face. Take it.
this is a real and shitty situation but why is this gender specific? and what about people who know they have a friendship like this and let it go on most likely because of the benefits of having someone under their thumb. aren’t they just as gross? I’m sorry. i’ve only heard attractive bastards pay any mind to this kind of thing and i think it’s because they love to whine. “I’m hot and i have to deal with people liking me, wahhhh.” These are the people you are sympathizing with. Assholes who won the evolutionary lottery and want you to lend them five bucks anyway
It’s gender specific because as far as oppression goes and misogyny, it’s Guy to girl. the real issue is misogyny, hate against women.
i think you’re inventing misogyny that doesn’t exist – you’re being a hypocrite and engage in men bashing. stop embarrassing other feminists
i’m only publishing this because a. your username is funny. similar to the I Have Black Friends defense against possibly ever being a racist. B. not inventing it, brony. not inventing it. C. got any evidence to back up the hypocrisy claims? D. show me some feminists who are embarassed by standing up against rape culture.
maybe i wasn’t very clear. in the specific case you r referring to(guy to girl) this situation can be described as misogynistic but i think there is a wider context for this type of event. this sort of thing occurs in lesbian and gay relationships. sometimes a ‘nice girl’ who doesn’t get what she wants from a guy behaves all misandristy. i don’t think this only happens to straight women. When it does it can be interpreted as misogyny but i think it’s a lot more about misanthropy than sexism
sure, other relationships can have these unhappy situations. But Nice Guy Syndrome, in case I wasn’t very clear, is about misogyny.
so a lesbian could become a Nice Guy as well?
not really. internalized sexism could work, i guess, but Nice Guy Syndrome is an issue of men hating women and feeling entitled to them. not anyone hating anyone and feeling entitled to them. This is sexism and misogyny, not just plain rudeness. Men have privilege over women, making this problem centric to them.
But look at the bolded lines that are popular from Nice Guys. These kinds of guys aren’t guys who are just nice people, they’re guys who think that being “Nice” is the fastest way to get into a girl’s pants, and when it fails, proceed to blame it on the woman’s supposed (aka stereotypical) inherent “feminine” traits when it doesn’t work.
This is based on a sexist line of thinking that all women want emotional support or material things from men, and are simply willing to provide sexual pleasure to a man in exchange, and vice versa, that men all primarily want sex from a relationship and giving a woman gifts or letting her cry on their shoulder is some kind of heroic sacrifice that must be made for that purpose.
The difference between Nice Guy Syndrome and it occuring with different gender dynamics is that if these statements are made about a man, it’s usually because the speaker believes these things do apply to the specific man in question, whereas in Nice Guy Syndrome, the Nice Guy blames it on what he perceives as a woman’s inherent female traits and then goes and applies it to all women.
Incidentally, Nice Guys don’t just tend to be sexist in their thinking (say, a woman who likes sex, or prioritizes sexual attractiveness or prowess in a partner is a “whore”, whereas if a man does the same it’s just “natural for men”), but also heterosexist and cissexist.
“The difference between Nice Guy Syndrome and it occuring with different gender dynamics is that if these statements are made about a man, it’s usually because the speaker believes these things do apply to the specific man in question, whereas in Nice Guy Syndrome, the Nice Guy blames it on what he perceives as a woman’s inherent female traits and then goes and applies it to all women.”
yes, you illustrated this quite eloquently, thank you!
Yes, there’s a wider context for this type of event. It’s called patriarchy, rape culture, misogyny and sexism.
It’s the culture in which too many men feel they have a right to women’s bodies, it’s the culture in which too many men feel that by giving a woman unwanted attention/gifts they can buy her time/affections, and she has no say in this deal. For the Nice Guy it is a default state that women are for sale at the price of few carefully selected Nice Words that he doesn’t mean anyway.
There are Nice Girls out there, sure, but what they don’t have is the institutional and societal power to back up their misconceptions. The Nice Guys do.
Which is why when a girl turns down a guy who bought her flowers she didn’t want is called nasty names, and the guy who turns down a girl who got him football tickets he didn’t want merely has standards. It is why the dude’s friends won’t try to convince him to date a girl he’s not interested in, whereas the friends of a girl will quite often recommend that she date the guy she doesn’t like because “he’s better than nothing, and at least he got you flowers.”
It is very gender specific – not because it doesn’t happen to every gender out there, but because there is an alarming tendency for guys to convince themselves that buying unwanted flowers and ignoring several rejections makes them nice. It doesn’t. It makes them persistent asshats, who forgot that hey, bringing flowers won’t make her love you. The fact is, that these guys don’t want the girl to actually love them back, they just want the girl. Period. Because to these guys women are slot machines that work like this: Insert flowers/cheesy flattery/movie tickets/dinner and out comes a relationship.
And then when it turns out that women are people, hho have emotions, *gasp* and who may not not fall in love with this particular dude, even though he did all the “moves”, they berate the women’s worth as human beings. This has nothing to do with bitterness, because innocent disappointed bitterness would sound like this: “Nooooo, why didn’t she want meeeee, booooo” and then have a beer and get over it, where as Nice Guy bitterness sounds like this: “Nooooo, she didn’t want me because I’m too Nice and she’s crazy and she likes a dude whom I don’t like, and so I’ll make it sound like she likes dudes in general who treat her badly, and I’ll call her a slut to boot!”
And really… that last one? That’s a Nice Guy(TM). And he’s fucking frightening. And clearly you have no idea just how bad these guys can get, lying to themselves as well as other people, because if you had any fucking idea how much these guys blame and shame girls into relationships WE DO NOT WANT, because the alternative is worse, you wouldn’t even argue about this. This is about misogyny. Plain and simple.
Oh and bad relationships? They happen between all genders. But the Nice Guy Syndrome? It’s not about bad relationships. It’s about those relationships that never happened and that the self-proclaimed but not truly nice guy is really angry about not having happened. Big-ass difference.
This has nothing to do with bitterness, because innocent disappointed bitterness would sound like this: “Nooooo, why didn’t she want meeeee, booooo” and then have a beer and get over it, where as Nice Guy bitterness sounds like this: “Nooooo, she didn’t want me because I’m too Nice and she’s crazy and she likes a dude whom I don’t like, and so I’ll make it sound like she likes dudes in general who treat her badly, and I’ll call her a slut to boot!”
yes! this is why it separates from loneliness. nothing wrong with being lonely and feeling put out when you get rejected, it’s fine to think ‘they’re a jerk if they didn’t want me’ and apply it to the person specifically, not women as awhole.
Really? Really? To say that this is a feminist idea is ridiculous. This happens with both sexes. On “Sex and the City”, the show that critics praised as the chronicles of the “modern woman”, these women sat and badmouthed their exes and guys who rejected them just like these supposed “nice guys” did. If anything, it’s a cover up to “act tough” like the break up hasn’t affected them. This happens with men; this happens with women. It’s a calloused shield. In terms of the “I asked you multiple times and you said no” argument is a strange one. First of all, in the example you’ve given (and it would be nice of you to at least blur names and pictures if you are going to air someone’s private business on your blog), it seems as though this girl did not specifically say no. Instead, it seems as though she took advantage of some poor dope that couldn’t take a hint. Instead, it seems like she saw an opportunity to get things she wanted (such as a completed science project, tickets to a great concert, etc) and bled this guy dry. Should he have taken the hint? Yes. Did he? No. This actually an example of women using sex to get what they want (which is a topic over which feminist camps have split on whether or not it is right or not). Also, this is an example from high school; though some people don’t mature after high school, many do. So, perhaps your point of view comes from a high school perspective where guys haven’t really matured into understanding how to deal with rejection and break ups, a world where it is absolutely important to have the upper hand in a relationship or situation at all times to maintain popularity or status. It’s not “Nice Guy Syndrome”, it’s growing up and being a guy in front of friends. To flip this situation, many girls, when rejected by a guy they like, will launch into a rant about what an asshole he is to make themselves get over it. It’s not nice guy syndrome, it’s a defense mechanism to dull the sting of rejection.
It doesn’t happen with both sexes because women don’t have patriarchy and misogyny backing them up. I will deal with this when I have more spoons.
Are you completely retarded? First of all, this “patriarchy” you speak of doesn’t exist, and if it did, why would men in most divorces, custody battles, and many other marital cases get fucked? Why would I when I turn 18 have to sign up for the selective service, and if I don’t, I get sent to federal fucking prison. And yes, that example that you gave was complete bollocks. It was an example of misandry in fact. She used him to get concert tickets, get candy, cards and flowers ect. It happens to men too, you twit. And yes, I’m anti feminist, and no, I’m not pro rape or pro sexual harassment, I think those things are some of the worst things to plague our culture. But we might have different definitions of rape. I have the definition where bruises or not, struggle or not, sex without consent. I’ve met a shit ton of people like you that argue if that a girl was drunk and consented to sex, and the next day felt bad about it, than that man is a rapist. tl;dr you’re a fucking retard, and if you died in a hole, I’d lol at your feuneral.
but you don’t know how to spell funeral, sweetheart. that’s okay, with your definition of rape you’ll probably end up in prison xoxo
And you address none of my points. Is it because you KNOW your points are completely retarded? Is it because you’re a very elaborate troll? Is it because you KNOW what I just told you is indefensible? I don’t know.
it’s because i laughed at you until i nearly pissed myself, posted the comment (and your IP address) to tumblr and facebook (and your email in case it’s not fake) and had hundreds of other women laugh at you as well. No, you’re not a threat. You’re entertaining. I’ve had this post up for over a year. I’ve got no obligation to cater to the whims of men with hurt feelings and a misogynist attitude just because I’m a woman on the internet and you found me.
okay, now i think i havet he spoons. let’s dig in.
i don’t watch sex in the city for a few different reasons however, women are oppressed by men. if you’re talking feminism, that IS an accepted concept in feminist theory. let’s go from there.
on the show, are they bad mouthing men in general, like, these men have issues, they don’t know what’s good for them, i was nice to him once so he owes me sex? is that what’s going on? is this a show that talks a lot about how some men like to date trash and won’t go for the nice girls like meeeee?
and if someone is going to put their personal diatribes on facebook, i’d say privacy is a no-go, yeah? even so, this has been going around on tumblr forever.people know their names and faces already. i’m not entirely concerned. if these two individuals want to tell me to bleep their names out, i’d be glad to oblige, though.
if you read the picture again the girl specifically said no countless times, and then seemed to get tired of it, so just started to avoid him. the fervor that he pursued her with was nothing short of creepy. the fact that her saying no is forgettable and not important at all says a lot about the enforcement about rape culture, because his hurt feelings are ultimately more important than her NO.
and if this was dealing with rejection, it wouldn’t be ‘some girls just don’t know what’s good for them’. will you read the statements that nice guys make again? it’s not just ‘wow it hurts that i was rejected by her. she’s mean.’ it’s, ‘some women don’t know what’s good for them.’
and yes, many women will launch into a rant about what an asshole HE is. the one guy. which characteristics relating to him. but i don’t often hear statements about how guys just don’t know what’s good for them.
You asked: “on the show, are they bad mouthing men in general, like, these men have issues, they don’t know what’s good for them”?
I don’t watch Sex in the City either, so I can’t tell you about what the women in the show say or don’t say. But plenty of my friends have sometimes complained about “men”, in general yes, and about how they’re just no good, or they just don’t know what’s good for them, or you just can’t trust them, etc. And sure, usually the friend in question had just either had a fight with her boyfriend or split up. And some of these guys were, in fact, pretty fucked up.
Eh, they were venting. And sometimes it’s easier to say “oh, men, why are they like that,” or “you know how they are,” than it is to acknowledge that the specific guy you’re dating right now is just messed up. Not smart, but only human, I guess. I’m just surprised at your and aim2misbehave’s insistence that women don’t tend to do this. That if a woman complains, it’s only generally “about what an asshole HE is. the one guy. which characteristics relating to him”. That while these so-called nice guys turn around and moan about how “women” are stupid when they’ve been rejected by one, women won’t do the same and complain about “men” being stupid when they’ve been rejected by one. I don’t recognize that at all. You never had a couple friends together bitching (sorry, I wish I could think of a better word without the sexist connotations) about how stupid or insensitive men (collectively, in general) are? Cause it happens plenty.
i don’t have enough spoons to attack the ‘BUT WOMEN TALK ABOUT MEN TOO’ argument, except to say that women don’t have power over men so it isn’t sexist and when women talk about men being pigs.
as for sex in the city i will scream if someone cites that as an example again because women aren’t involved in the writing of sex in the city it’s a bunch of gay men. yay misogyny.
Beautifully put!
Late to the party, but I wanted to argue (by which I mean state with a brief explanation, go back to doing homework, and possibly forgot that I ever came here, which in no way reflects upon my feelings towards this awesome blog post) that while misogyny is real and the division of gender traits and roles inevitably gives way to hierarchy (which, across culture and history, has almost always favored men and masculine traits over women and feminine traits), that making wide sweeping statements about men contributes to the problem of assigning gender roles. The roles and assigned characteristics forced upon women place us in a significantly weaker position in life, and making male bashing jokes does not carry the same crushing weight as misogynistic jokes and falls under the category of punching up vs. punching down, it still isn’t right or fair or justifiable to dismiss gender stereotyping of men. Understandable? In our position, yes. Fair and conducive to efforts to shape a society in which men and women are not assumed to possess characteristics according to gender? Not at all. A great example of how men suffer from a narrow understanding of masculinity is the greater emotional stigma men experience when they are raped. Again, women are lower on the totem pole, and more women are sexually violated than men, but it is extremely important to recognize that both genders suffer from generalities that condemn individuals for being themselves.
I was trying to find the adjective form of misandry when I came across this entry on Wikipedia:
“In his 1997 book The Gender Knot: Unraveling Our Patriarchal Legacy, sociologist Allan G. Johnson stated that accusations of man-hating have been used to put down feminists and shift attention onto men in a way that reinforces male-centered culture.[21] Johnson noted that the word misandry did not appear in dictionaries until recently[22] and that comparisons between misogyny and misandry are misguided because mainstream culture offers no comparable anti-male ideology. He says in his book that accusations of misandry work to discredit feminism because “people often confuse men as individuals with men as a dominant and privileged category of people.”[21] He wrote that given the “reality of women’s oppression, male privilege, and men’s enforcement of both, it’s hardly surprising that every woman should have moments where she resents or even hates ‘men’.”" The lack of words describing an institutional hatred of men (tell me, what is the male equivalent of an insult that is as strong as “cunt”?) is extremely telling.
As for whether or not stereotyping men is sexist, I won’t debate that, because the application of labels such as sexist/racist/ableist will vary depending on one’s feelings towards whether or not those labels should be reserved for situations of punching down. Personally, I hesitate to say that hatred of white people in America is racist because we still experience an established privilege that is unthreatened by that hatred, but the emotional justification does not negate the fact that it is still a case of generalizing based on a single factor and judging accordingly.
Oh, and yeah, “I asked you out! You’re such a bitch because you didn’t feel the same way! I expect immediate relief and gratitude on your part that any man would desire your romantic/sexual companionship!” Pffffft. More like this:
http://xkcd.com/513/
Did you read the part that said “I begged you to come round 5 times and each time you said no”? She did specifically say no, repeatedly. He ignored it, repeatedly.
And THAT, my friends, is what is known as “rape culture.”
Also, she refused to even dance with him, and he didn’t mention her asking for any of the stuff (and I’m sure he would’ve said so if she had asked for it), so I’d hardly say she was “using sex” to get what she wanted, and I don’t think a science project, some chocolates and cards, and a pair of concert tickets over four years would count as “bled dry” – I know high school guys who would’ve done all that in a month if a girl was really just trying to get stuff from them.
yep, rape culture is A LOT about ‘ you can say no but it really doesn’t matter. my feelings just matter more.’ it sounded mean when she refused to dance with him, but really…he’d been pursuing her so obsessively…she does NOT owe him a nice response at all. we never owe a nice response. a no can be a no. by then he should’ve taken the hint but it seems, according to sarah’s argument, that his hurt feelings matter more than her no.
Not to mention, I certainly wouldn’t want to work with somebody who didn’t even think to consider my preference of science project partner, but instead went behind my back. Creepy.
Also, what I’ve seen of Sex and the City is nothing like 99% of “modern women” really are like.
True, we will dish on guys (or girls) that we’ve dated/fucked/crushed on/whatever, but I think people of all genders do that among their trusted friends. And sure, maybe we do have a “boys/girls are dumb!” moment when we get rejected. But Nice Guy Syndrome happens when an otherwise pretty normal guy takes his experience(s) of rejection, combines it with sexist stereotypes, and then uses it as the basis for his entire view of relationships and women.
I suppose, if anything’s similar for women, it might be Special Snowflake Syndrome, where women are all “But I don’t have inferior feminine traits like other wimminz, I think sandwich jokes are funny, so why do guys go for dumb bimbos who like nail polish instead of MEEEE?” Again, it’s a result of building a worldview on sexist stereotypes.
yeah, with the last one, it’s definitely internalized misogyny and sexism because of what ‘type’ of girl is supposed to be attractive enough.
With the high school Facebook example – I’ve had men ask me home before. I said no thank you. They kept asking, and I kept saying no, and they just. Kept. Asking. And the fact that they kept asking made me less and less inclined to EVER say yes, or even be in their company long enough for them to ask again, because the fact that they couldn’t/wouldn’t hear my ‘no’ meant that the idea of being alone with them in their territory was an increasingly frightening one.
it’s problematic for anyone to assume that being nice to someone automatically entitles you to sex with that person. the reason why this particular post is gender specific is because as icedteaandlemoncake said, there is patriarchy and misogyny backing them up. since feminism is a movement seeking to stop sexist oppression, it makes it a feminist issue.
Consider this: is it okay for this girl to say “I’m sick of boys being such dicks” because she’s “oppressed”"? This post is essentially calling all men misogynist. She makes a blanket statement. This blog is making a blanket statement. I’m wondering what makes her in the right for doing this and men wrong for doing this (because, not all men are misogynist. I hate to burst your bubble, but a majority of men are now afraid of women thanks to this particular brand of feminism.)
if you actually *read* the post, and not just the title, you’d know that i spelt out quite clearly that it’s not ALL MEN that i’m talking about, because not all men do this, misogynists do.
Notice that you’re mentally inserting “all” in front of “boys” in her statement, when her statement was probably directed at the boys who have been dicks to her (since it’s logically fallacious to make a statement of experience about a non-experience), meaning the insertion of “the” in front of “boys” would probably be a more valid reading.
And, I would argue that it’s okay for any gender to verbalise frustration, as she is doing here, whether or not they are ” “oppressed” “. The difference between this verbalised frustration and Nice Guy Syndrome is that Nice Guys who are rejected do not just express frustration or disappointment, they rationalise this specific case of rejection (as a few people here have kept reiterating without seeming effect) using sexist and misogynistic stereotypes, and then apply this to all women. Hence, the “nice guys finish last” stereotype, which, when examined in light of Nice Guy Syndrome, has sexist and misogynistic roots.
Nice Guys effectively push all fault/blame for the rejection to the girls, by explaining the rejection simplistically via “girls love assholes” or “girls have a deep-seated need for jerks”, or something similar. In the case of girl and boy in the picture, notice how she is blamed and shamed on a public platform by the boy; called out for “[being a dick] too” — when all she did was to make it known repeatedly that she was not interested. (And, BTW, do note that what we’re reading from the picture is his account of a few events over four years — you don’t know how many more times she’s rejected him, and whether she’s done so sympathetically, and so to argue that “she did not specifically say no” and “[took] advantage of” him is a poor, tenuous argument.)
In blaming girls’ for their rejection of men, the rejected Nice Guys also obviously ignore the girls’ reasons or feelings — in effect deny their emotional complexity. And again, this objectification plays into rape culture. Women lack the institutional power to perform the same to men; notice that even in the Special Snowflake Syndrome parallel, it is centred around “I am not inferior like the other women; I am a special snowflake!” In essence, the sexist stereotypes used by these women are stereotypes sexist against women; these are women who have internalised misogyny. The Special Snowflake Syndrome, unlike the Nice Guy Syndrome, does not say, “He must have some psychological issues that make him crave abuse from other women.”
so you won’t let me post. well that’s pretty weak. well here’s what i wanted this to come to anyway. stop identifying with yr oppressors. it doesn’t help women and doesn’t help fat people. you obviously live in a place where slut can be used to shame someone. i also hope wherever this is grows up and learns that sexual freedom is not a sin
yes, as the admin of this blog i exercise control on what comments get posted and i don’t owe apologies when i don’t post one. however, the rest of this comment has absolutely nothing to do with the post itself, or me, or anything.
You made your point from the first comment so it’s not like anyone really needs to read your other comments.
Aside from that: please read this entry. Go get a beverage, take a stroll, ponder it, then read it again if you have to.
This is not addressing all men, not gay men, not lesbians and its not even addressing professional prostitutes. I’m not sure where this whole ‘sexual freedom’ thing came about, so I suggest that you read this article one more time to be clear on whats being said and then turn off the computer for a while.
And if you had actually *read* my comment, you would defend your stance on why it’s okay for this girl to do the exact same thing you’re saying misogynists do.
i’m tired of boys being such dicks can be taken a couple of ways. to actually defend her? i’d say it’s possible that she could be talking about a history of boyfriends. either way, while generalization of all guys as dicks isn’t cool, like i and others have said a few times on this post, women don’t have patriarchy and misogyny backing them up when they make these comments, so it doesn’t actually hurt or oppress men when someone says ‘ugh guys are such dicks.’ not condoning it or saying it’s a good thing to do, but it doesn’t oppress men.
and it doesn’t oppress women to call them sluts because there is no misogny/oppression power in that anyway.
deleted the rest of it JUST so i could laugh and laugh at this part. good job.
slut /slʌt/ Show Spelled
[sluht] Show IPA
–noun
1. a dirty, slovenly woman.
2. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
Use sluts in a Sentence
See images of sluts
Search sluts on the Web
——————————————————————————–
Origin:
1375–1425; late Middle English slutte; compare dial. slut mud, Norwegian (dial.) slutr sleet, impure liquid
source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sluts
But seriously, stop posting now and I will too.
Growing up I was always told being the nice girl was the best but the older I got and I saw some “not-so-nice” girls make it and I didn’t, it’s taught me that no, being a nice girl isn’t always best but I’m naturally nice, I don’t pretend like some people. But I’ve had to learn not to be such a pushover but also learn not to be too much of a bitch, it’s a balancing act really.
I agree with a lot of this and I don’t think nice guys do themselves any favours by using those lines it has also made me angry – especially the references to the facebook post. Girls – especially the one in the facebook post – could be more honest. Not just to say ‘no’ when working on a school project or yes to a dance and then slink off, or take advantage of his generosity. If that girl had said “Sorry, I’m not interested” rather than giving him the impression that he was or just saying no then it might have been different. If you know where you stand then it is easier to have a cry, have a beer and move on.
By the way I’m not a nice guy, I haven’t been rejected by lots of women I’m gay and have experienced liking someone and them not feel the same and also experienced the reverse. Just be up front about what you want and how you feel. That goes for anyone in any relationship (or potential relationship).
i still don’t think that girls owe a nice explanation in order to not get stalked. no means no. she told him no dooozens of times.
I’d like to point to the fact that any relationship with someone, be it of the same or the opposite sex, is not a linear function of time an engagement. That means that you can be perfectly ok being friends with someone, even really good friends, but resent the relationship option and that’s totally fine. The problem is when people believe in that linear function and guys befriend girls according to that flawed logic.
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I think the problem is being a “Nice Guy” for the sake of being a “Nice Guy” and not really for the sake of being truly nice.
I think this article vents some frustrations. But, speaking for myself, I’d think very poorly of a girl who made this attitude into a habit. It comes off really jerky.
aw, the worst thing in the world. being thought of as a jerk by someone.
It almost sounds like women might be attracted to a man based on attributes other than niceness! But I’m sure that all those Nice Guy™s care about in judging a woman is how nice she is!
The fact that this posts exists just… *applauds*
I’ve been saying this for years. Because I’ve had guys talk to me about how their “nice guys” and girls just go for jerks. And I always tell them, no, those “nice guys” only assume they’re nice guys, but they don’t realize their “niceness” was entirely based on wanting to get her and not that they’re actually nice guys.
Anyway, the only thing I didn’t agree with was the part were it says something about how there aren’t any girls that think “I like guys treating me like crap.” Because naturally, no girl is going to admit that. When in reality, for a variety of reasons, there are lots of guys who specifically date guys that treat them like crap.
There are parts of this that are grasping onto things are true, but your whole feminist agenda pulls your reason so off track.
Fuck, part got copy-pasta’d in there. Can you delete that? Or delete the whole post it really doesn’t matter.
no i approved it, and laughed my butt off at it because ‘my whole feminist agenda’ hahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahhahaha.
thanks for the laugh, dude.
I disagree with the word “Sizeist.” I’m not a man who restricts himself to “skinny” girls, I like women with meat on their bones, but when you’re wider than you are tall, that is unhealthy, that is unattractive. I understand this has been brought about through a socialization process wrought by the world around me, but my point stands. I do not find rolls upon rolls attractive and I don’t think it makes me some sort of bigot to think that.
Also, I know plenty of women DO go for jerks. This is coming from a guy in a happy relationship; I have heard stories and stories and stories about some dumb girl getting into an argument with her asshole boyfriend for the five hundredth time that week. What does she do? Walk away and pronounce her proud independence? Find a better man? Say fuck it and go for girls instead? Nope, right back to him. I’m not saying this makes it OK for the guy to be a douche. This extends to the case of abuse, there is no excuse for men to act in this manner. Saying that “It’s complicated” degrades violence from what it is, violence, to something that can be excused because “He was angry” or “We love each other.” Bullshit. It’s abuse and it’s not OK. Again, by saying that complications are grounds for two people staying in a physically abusive relationship is disingenuous to the nature of abuse.
you diagree with the term because you are sizeist. you basically just said if you’re fat, that’s unatttractive. nice try, bro.
yes, it makes you some sort of bigot.
lol, dude, nice guy syndrome to themax.
you basically just said if you’re fat, that’s unatttractive. nice try, bro. yes, it makes you some sort of bigot.
Yeah god forbid anyone is more attracted to one body type than another. We all have to be equally attracted to every type of body size, and if we’re not, we’re bigots. Obv.
nope, but you are if you think that every fat person is gross. and you’re on a random internet blog arguing that it’s okay to be sizeist so you’re kind of proving my point. you not finding fat people attractive is only hurting you.
So he’s a bigot… and you’re not?
You’ve said above that basically anything a woman can say about a man is justified because we live in a “rape culture” where men have all the power.
Anything a _____ can say to a ____ is justified because we live in a ____ culture.
Let’s fill those blanks in with “White” and “Black” and try not to sound like a bigot.
Lets put it this way, when will a woman ever date a fat guy?
a lot of women date a lot of fat guys.
“I disagree with the word “Sizeist.””
Let’s see where this is going.
“I’m not a man who restricts himself to “skinny” girls, I like women with meat on their bones, but when you’re wider than you are tall, that is unhealthy,”
Very true. While being overweight does not guarantee that health is compromised, the elevated risks and high incidence rate of developing life threatening health problems are real, undisputed in the general medical community, and serious enough to justify the inclusion of weight in the group of health indicators. That being said, maintaining a healthy weight can be a struggle for many reasons that have nothing to do with lifestyle choices (sure, eating too much and exercising too little may have gotten somebody there, but extreme obesity damages the metabolic system to the point where it is just flat out wrong to say, “It’s your choice to remain fat.”) and while saying somebody is fat should never, EVER be shaming or carry a judgment, a body fat percentage higher than 25-30% poses a threat to physical health.
“is unattractive.”
Nope, you lost me. Screw you, dude. Screw you. Never shame based on weight, whether skinny, fat, short, or tall. I can’t even imagine how it must feel to walk through life, constantly aware of being judged for your actions by people who assume that you do not consider your well being to be a priority. And even if you are the fat customer at Dairy Queen, so what? People have bad days. People have terrible moments in life where the brain is demanding serotonin and fats and sugars are the quickest route to satisfying that painful neurological need. Or maybe it is their monthly cheat, because altering food habits can make a person crazy and everybody needs a day off. Or maybe they are trapped in a vicious cycle of low pay, high medical bills, long work hours, no time and money to find and prepare healthy food as inexpensive as Burger King (for those who claim that it is really easy to eat well for the same price as eating fast food, check this out: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/a-high-price-for-healthy-food/). Anyways, screw you.
Sorry for the long posts. I got on my soapbox. I like my soapbox. I understand if you do not like my soapbox.
You are a stereotype. Thank you for furthering the Idiocracy.
says the internet troll. dude, snl skits have been performed about you.
Nice article. Mind if I link this elsewhere?
how so, how do I credit you?
thanks. and yeah, just link to me. <3
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I love this so much! This post is perfect
as a guy who hangs arounds alot of guys…and observes their interactions with women ill say that your right about the nice guy syndrome, there are legions of guys who act nice to only garner women and think that they are nice in general….which is bull…they in fact are assholes who try to buy women with a pseude and a pearl necklace(no pun intended) …honestly and i MEAN HONESTLY… im a nice guy…not to just women…but to people in general..i was raised that way by my single mother…i grew up believing that ppl deserve the common curtesy(forgive me if i spelled that wrong LOL) and that mindset is still burned into my head….not saying ill kiss ur ass but you kind of get what im saying.
i understand and heard one too many times the statement that these “nice guys” try to sell to people: “she’s a slut because she choose that jerk over me” or “ALL women like assholes” you cant really take for a grain of salt when it comes to these guys…BUT i can tell you this…the women that i approached…courted…asked out and got postive feedback from(saying yes to my advances) turned around,close-lined my ass with “your too nice/sweet” after dating process begins….low and behold….they get with an asshole…and not just some random dude out of bitterness that i dont know(san antonio, tx is a medium-large city where word travels FAST) but a BONAFIED, hits women,holds no bones of -admiting he’s banging 5 chicks at a time while he has a girl- asshole…
women arent sluts because they diss/dump a guy (depends on reason)
women arent even sluts if they seek and date assholes…but it does make them look stupid if they COMPLAIN about it WHEN it doesnt work out
men arent assholes because they diss/dump a girl (depends on reason)
men arent even assholes if they seek and date sluts…but its does make them look stupid if they COMPLAIN about it WHEN it doesnt work out
anyways, good job exposing the under-cover assholes (thats what ill call them now XD)
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“Nice guys” would make me laugh if they weren’t so pervasive. Some would excuse the nice guy, saying his frustration at seeing the girl not going out with someone who cares for them (conveniently, this “someone” is always the nice guy) is born out of compassion. Its sad how selfish infatuation can make people. I’ve “lost” many a crush to other guys. I don’t blame them or the guys for when things won’t go my way, I just shrug and be happy for them.
That said, I’m not sure the guy on facebook was falling into the nice guy role. I don’t think he felt entitled to a relationship for being “nice” to her, I think he was simply showing how she always exploited him as much as boyfriends exploit her; stone thowing in glass houses.
I find it very disturbing that women nowadays have an extreme lack of values. This article proves what a culture parasite feminism can be and why traditional dating and marriage is pretty much dead, but at the same time if it weren’t for feminist propaganda such as this polluting the women of today, I wouldn’t be getting laid so much so in an ironic but sad way, thank you feminism. I hope whoever wrote this knows that because of thinking like this, there is now an army of sluts unsuited for any kind of long term connection of course just waiting to be pumped and dumped at our disposal.
I’m a Christian saving sex for marriage, but nice try with the values part. I like how your values don’t count, though. If I was having sex an army of sluts might sound kind of cool. Maybe you’d get laid more if you didn’t call women sluts just because they don’t want to be treated like crap? Juuust an idea.
Thank you for this article- it basically voices everything I’ve wanted to post to Facebook but haven’t, haha.
I just want to share a couple “nice” person stories. Maybe the “nice girl” is out of context, but in the friendzone vein, I’d like to vent.
Firstly, the prominent “nice guy”. This guy is the type to share those hipster photos that are supposedly romantic and like pictures about friendzoning. He is chivalrous… Not my favorite quality, because it implies women are weak.
It would be one thing if he was another lonely teenage boy who is disillusioned, but there’s more to the story.
He has sexually harassed four girls in two years in high school. Even if being “slutty” or “leading him on” mattered, they weren’t. Fully clothed and sweet girls. Got their butts grabbed and I don’t know what else.
Real nice.
As for the nice girl, she’s just selfish. She wants a relationship with this guy because he thinks he would cater to her desires. She claims to be so nice and sweet when, in fact, she doesn’t care about anythinb but her own problems.
Anyway, I’m done. Thanks for reading.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this article. I have many guy friends that do this “nice guy” shit all the time. And it’s irritating as hell, as if the only thing a girl should look for in a guy is if he his nice, and buys her things. I mean helloooo I’m sure most guys don’t think “gosh golly gee wiz that girl is so nice I’m in love.” No they look at her and think she’s really pretty, or smoking hot. (looks are always first, if she’s nice or not it’d always near the bottom of the list (this is most of my guy friends here) I don’t understand why don’t some guys get that if someone isn’t into u their just not into u. It doesn’t matter if your the sweetest guy on earth. It just seems that nice guys don’t get that maybe just maybe the girl has standards that he just doesn’t fit into and it’s nothing personal. Just like guys say that girls love jerks guys seem to go after the same types of girls too.
And I always wonder why does the girl have to say no directly to a guy. If someone is ignoring me and every attempt I tried to get them talking to me ended up with them steadily ignoring me.(the guy in the FB post was trying to get her attention for 4 years and she was pretty obvious she didn’t like him like that) I can take the fuckin hint PERIOD. And what’s with the guys on this comment section trying to make the guys who act nice only to get with the girl seem as if that type of thing is okay.
I’m just so sick of insecure “nice guys”
Insecure nice guys are less likely to be a jerk than confident good looking guys. So if you routinely choose the later then you are actually attracted to jerks. These are the misogynists, they hate you enough to deceive you and they are so good at it that they will actually make you fall for them. Her standards will keep her busy with jerks for the rest of her life. It’s only good manners to be polite and let a guy down gently if you’re not interested, taking advantage of a guy should earn you a bad reputation. Then all the nice guys will avoid you and you’ll just be left with the misogynists, of course they tend to be successful in business as well so you’ll be set for life. This works the same the other way round, while I’m not going to say that all good looking women are bitches, if you’ve learnt all your life that people will like you because you are beautiful and you can get away with being a bitch then there is a good chance you will be. Without fear, nobody would be nice.
you’re basically a living example of what sexism is and your comment exemplified it. thanks for that!!
O Hai! I am a menz and the sexism you speak of does not exist, little lady! Here, let me mainsplain you!
There was a guy who would come to the ice cream store I work at who just would NOT take no for an answer. I was friendly to him, as I was to all customers. He was a regular and sometimes we’d joke around, but I never thought of him as anything more than a nice customer. So anyway, one day he asks me what I was doing after work and I was so taken off guard I said that I was busy. The next day he came in and asked me if I was busy after work. At this point I was ready for the question as soon as I saw him and said that while I thought he was nice, I had no interest in dating him. He said “oh” awkwardly and just kind of walked away. Imagine my surprise when I heard from my coworkers the next day after my day off that he had come around again and was asking them for information about me! He wanted my phone number and to know what days I worked, and if I was seeing anyone. They also told me he had flowers and a stuffed animal with him. He left the stuffed animal there for me. I said I didn’t want it and on my next day off it was gone – a coworker said she had given it back to him.
About two weeks later a coworker told me some “friends” had been in to see me. I was puzzled why they came to work to see me instead of just calling, but those “friends” showed up the next time I was working. It turned out he had sent his three friends to come into the ice cream store and talk about how great he was, and they all kept apologizing for how creepy (that was exactly what they called him! “I’m sorry he’s so creepy.”) but that he was actually a really nice guy and I should give him a chance. I told them they were creeping me out and they left. A month later he came around again to ask me out and I told him to get lost. I was rude to him, but at that point he deserved it. I think he finally got the message because he hasn’t bothered me in about a year and a half now, but I’m willing to bet he told his friends some of this crap about me.
Hello,
In your “but I asked you out five times” example, I would like to point out it wasn’t fair that he did the whole science project on his own and when he offered her the concert tickets, she should have refused and gave them back to him. So she was not interested in him but that does not mean she should feel free to use him. Nevertheless, I do agree that he should’ve taken a hint after she would not work with him on the project in the first place, but they are both high school kids, they’re just kids. There’s no need to be hard on them, it is common for kids to have a crush that lasts for years, I would not call this creepy behaviour at all; it is hyperbolic to classify this as part of “rape culture”.
However, overall, I agree with the message of the blog post. There are a number of nice guys who have a sense of self entitlement, further reinforced by their self-perception as nice guys, when they have feelings for a woman whereby she should return the sentiment. The truth is the nice guy is just pretending to be nice in order to win her favour without directly asking her out, as he lacks the courage.
That is not to say, that an upfront rejection will prevent the denigration of the woman in question. One of my dear friends asked an attractive woman out for coffee, she said no. he was incensed, as I was eating lunch with him, he went on a massive tirade about how superficial she is (for not choosing a nerdy nice guy as he put it) and how she won’t go out with anyone outside of her clique. I asked him, if she was obese and had very bad acne, would he still ask her out? He coughed and stuttered, I then pointed out that he merely asked her out on the basis of physical appearance. Personality wise they weren’t even remotely compatible; he was calling her superficial even though it was he who asked her out on a superficial basis.
There is something you did not really address, and that is peer pressure between men. I remember a couple of years ago, I wanted to ask a women out I had chatted to a few times, I thought we really clicked and found her attractive. When I told my friends, they groaned with disgust uttering “she’s not even a 5/10”, basically giving me a hard time because I was not interested in a blonde glamour model. Nevertheless the next time I saw her I asked her out, turns out she had a boyfriend. 2 years later, I’m still laughed at for being rejected by what they deem an ugly woman. What I mean to say is movies and society have given a general expectation that they should pursue only one type of woman and that they are entitled to “get” her sooner or later. Anytime the woman being pursued does not live up to this unrealistic expectation of an immediate, or at least an eventual “yes”, it is felt as a grave injustice.
The nice guy hypocrisy and the double-standard “slut” or “whore” branding are not only side-effects of the oppression of women by men, but also the oppression of man by man, of women by women and an over-arching oppression by an elite at the top of the consumerist food chain over everybody else.
The nice guy syndrome and the friend zone seemto go hand in hand. I had a guy friend online once, we were pretty close. We chatted almost every day (mostly about video games.) I have a bunch of online guy friends so I didn’t think anything of it. As luck would have it, me and this guy lived in the same state fairly close and one day we met up. That’s when the problems started. After we met that initial time he started wanting to meet up with me again and aksed if I wanted to go on a date with him. I said I didn’t want to date him, I liked him as my friend, but I would be happy to meet up with him again if he just wanted to hang out. He stopped talking to me after that of course, and on his facebook he started to put up rants about being friend zoned. It kind of sucks, I considered him a really good friend, but I guess for guys being friends is worthless.
I guess I am lucky. I have plenty of male friends, only one of whom has ever pulled the Nice Guy routine. I was 18 and in a mentally abusive relationship when I met my Nice Guy. He was friendly and supportive at first, he helped me get my head sorted out. All along we agreed we were just friends. Anyway, I dumped the mentally abusive guy and then all of a sudden, a week later, Nice Guy has decided we were in a relationship despite me saying I wasn’t interested and it was too soon, told all our mutual friends who took it as gospel and when I got angry about it and told him we weren’t an item suddenly I’M the evil bitch who dumped a Nice Guy after all he had done for me. All our mutual friends, of both genders, drop me like a hot cake and console him. He kept calling me, telling me how I’d ruined his life and I’d have come to love him like he loved me sooner or later, and I believed I was a horrible person until a few years later I realised he was just as mentally abusive as the guy I dumped, he just went about it differently. A few years later he tried to do the same to one of the female mutual friends who had believed him, and she actually apologised to me.
I’m a firm believer that men and women can be friends, no strings attached, but since my Nice Guy experience (14 years ago!) I worry about making new male friends just in case.
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I have had several times in my life when guy-friends put me in a situation that ruined the friendship and never resulted in a relationship. After this I learned my lesson and am now very guarded around any guy-friends, I’m not as open and as myself around them, I try to mention how happy I am with my boyfriend a lot (I’d say ANNOYINGLY a lot) to never give them any reason to think I am ever going to be available for that sort of thing. I think because of this, the friendship isn’t as satisfying as I cannot be myself around some people. I absolutely shun discussing any topics pertaining to romance/sex etc (you know, pretty normal conversation between friends) because I am very painfully conscious some people misconstrue that as flirting or coming on to them (more like wishful thinking imo).
The most glaring example of a friendship turned sour happened when I was around 15. I became friends with a boy that lived in my town, we hung out a lot, he taught me photography, I taught him about movies, it was very fun. There wasn’t a hint of romance (or so I thought). This went on for probably half a year, we hung out at my house and his house, his parents and siblings got along great with me. I thought we were forging a strong friendship .Come summertime he asked if I wanted to go on a cruise with his whole family (his parents asked him if he wanted to bring a friend along and he said yes).
So we drive to Florida and board a ship. We get to know some kids around our age, girls and boys, hang out all together, good times. All of a sudden about a week into it he asks me if I want to be boyfriend/girlfriend. Being close friends, of course the last thing I wanted to do was hurt his feelings, so I said no but explained that I liked him so much as a friend but that I didn’t see us having a romantic relationship. Later the same day, we were hanging out with the group of people we’d met on the ship when he bursts out in a tirade about how his parents paid for this trip and how it was so rude of me to refuse a relationship with him, and how I was using him (all in front of like 10 other people). I felt completely humiliated, hurt and worst of all TRAPPED in this rather confined environment (cannot exactly escape this situation by jumping overboard). I thought I was going to become a complete pariah after he publicly humiliated me like some kind of manipulating moocher in front of pretty much everyone we knew there. Thankfully, people played it off like nothing happened and still hung out with me. I tried to avoid him best I could for the rest of the trip and could not wait to get home. I don’t know if he thought the ship setting would be a romantic place to ask me out, but it turned out to be a complete disaster. After we got back home, we stopped hanging out, in fact when he drove me home immediately after getting back he was very rude and I started to cry because I still cared about this person at the time and it was very hurtful to be treated like that. He actually had the audacity to call the police to my house and tell them I was planning on committing suicide, so I had to again be humiliated in my driveway trying to explain to the officer it was a lie.
Then several weeks later I heard through my brother that he was telling people that I led him on, and constantly flirted with him, and basically gave him every reason to think I was into him sexually only to take advantage of him and to try to go on a trip for free (mind you, the whole trip thing came out of left field for me, I had no idea they were planning it, much less that he was going to be allowed to take a friend). It would’ve meant some genius-level scheming and prediction skills on my part (not to mention some serious dedication to the role as we spent a LOT of time most days of the week hanging out prior to him asking me to go) all for a fucking cruise that I didn’t really get to enjoy anyway.
Of course, I felt hurt and cheated and our friendship effectively ended right there. But this very much pertains to the whole Nice Guy complex because despite how he treated me after my refusal and how much lying he did to try and besmirch my name, he still thought he was just being nice to me. No doubt, I learned my lesson here, I never accept any type of trip offers or gifts from guys any more (well, not entirely true, I exchange birthday/xmas gifts with a few guy-friends but it’s always mutual and they are also friends with my fiance), for fear of them being used as some bargaining tool to get me into a relationship or bed. This was about 12-13 years ago (I’m in my mid 20s now) and it’s still with me to this very day. I probably shut out some genuine opportunities at real friendship with guys over the years because of some fears and issues I developed after this kind of situation.
That sounds like an absolutely horrendous situation. I’m sorry you had to go through that … what a nightmare!
Please don’t carry this experience too long with you as a measure to perceive what men, in general, are like, though. You were both 15 at the time … Teenagers do the most stupid things imaginable (not all teenagers, but a lot of them). Because, well, they’re teenagers. Their brains are literally not fully grown yet, and they can be cruel as kingdom come without even thinking twice about it. Hell, I did things up through my mid-20s that I now feel quite ashamed about and would never do again…
That said, it sounds like a wise precaution not to accept things like a trip from a guy for just the two of you… it could be an innocuous offer of friendship (I’ve been on holidays with a female friend without intending anything more – but then again we definitely both paid our own way), but chances are that he’s hoping the trip will turn friendship or acquaintance into something more. I mean, you didn’t know any better at the time, you were just teenagers! But that’s a smart enough precaution, I think … it’s a league upward from a friend just giving you some small present or the like.
but then again we both paid our own way?
sounds like you’re insinuating she’d owe you f you didn’t.
gross.
Huh? No, of course she wouldn’t “owe” anyone anything no matter who pays. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though. Lovely.
The main point I was actually trying to make was that people in general (men too) are less likely to be as much of an ass about this kind of thing as that boy was once they’re no longer 15 .. or 24, for that matter. Most people do start behaving better once they’re out of puberty (or, for some, college) …
But I did agree with her where she wrote that she’d now “never accept any type of trip offers” anymore, because I think she’s right that there are *some* things that should be eyed with some wariness. When someone does offer to take you on a trip and pay for your way, that would be a red flag to me too, because it does make it likely enough that they’re hoping that something amorous will happen. And NO, of course, neither that hope nor their offer would give them any *right* to anything in any way. That should be self-evident. But you’d still have to explain you’re not interested, which is an uncomfortable thing to have to do when you’re stuck with someone away from home. And they might be sad or disappointed or whatever – and if they’re decent people, they will try to hide it and take it in stride, but you’d still know, and if they’re assholes they will shove their disappointment in your face. Etc etc. It’s just a red flag if you’re looking to avoid uncomfortable situations generally – so on that point I was *agreeing* with her.
It’s a tricky middle ground … learning enough from a brutal experience to become wary of people’s intentions to some degree, but not so much that you always immediately assume the worst… We’ve all had experiences after which we had to struggle to do that.
Reblogged this on AUBG Feminism and commented:
Really good article on “nice guy syndrome”
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I’m not a feminist or anything like that,
But I think You hit the nail right on the head. I like to go on dates with guys, and I’m one of those girls that have never been kissed, etc.
But, these guys who like me ASSUME that I’m going to like them back. Right away. Because they give me stuff. Or they call themselves my friend. But when I like a guy, and they shrug me off, I’m the desperate and pitiful one.
It is a gender role thing that the guys who DO get married grow out of. My dad’s like that. The happily married people are like that. The guy says “I don’t deserve her, I don’t know why she chose me, but God must like me or something.”
That’s the thing. Guys don’t ever “Deserve” girls. I’m sorry, they don’t. They can be our friend or save us from a lion, but they’ll never “Deserve” us. (And, I think that’s why it’s not opposite. Girls don’t walk around saying “I’m nice. I deserve that guy.” At least, I don’t think so.)
But yeah. As long as we serve and are loving WITHOUT expecting anything in return, then we’ll find ourselves happy.
That’s my opinion.
And that is why Peeta is my favorite fictional nice guy. (And why Aang is not).
Aang, (from avatar the last airbender), was like “Hey Katara, why should you think me as only a brother. Sure, you’re older and taller than me, and besides saving the world, I haven’t done anything for you, but the fact that I like you and I’m a hero should be the reason you love me.” . . . gross. It does not compute.
But with Peeta, it’s like “I’m in love with you. There ya go, I said it. But I want you to live more than I want you to love me.” And that’s why Peeta’s nice guy-ness can work. He doesn’t expect anything in return. He only steps up to the plate when he feels like he’s fighting for her, and he’s only doing that because he truly and unconditionally loves her. He doesn’t go “CHOOSE lady!” It’s an unconditional love.
And that’s why Gale, (despite his hotness), doesn’t work for me. He kisses Katniss because he thought he should have first dibs. Right?
So in short, guys who truly love a girl should love them unconditionally– like a friend or something more– and then the girl will fall in love with him, OR NOT. Either way, selfish love should not be rewarded with pity dates.
A rather enlightening article, to an extent. Though, I will say that I try to brush off rejection but there are times that I do think “maybe I could have done better”. But I just try to roll forward. Think that’s a good step?
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